tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post5440345597472639480..comments2024-01-19T00:21:36.058-05:00Comments on View from the Deadbox: Relegation & Promotion: PSP StyleBaca Locohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-68071781609903741032013-05-16T16:22:49.185-04:002013-05-16T16:22:49.185-04:00Why relegate 2 Champions. Why not relegate only 1...Why relegate 2 Champions. Why not relegate only 1 Champion (via playoff of the bottom two) and promote only 1 Challenger? <br /><br />Kennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-2872759606509919062013-05-11T16:47:58.966-04:002013-05-11T16:47:58.966-04:00Anon 110 & 113
I'm not arguing there is no...Anon 110 & 113<br />I'm not arguing there is no merit to the relegation "playoff" formula I'm simply advancing an opinion that a direct match-up between Champs and Challengers would be superior for the reasons already given.Baca Locohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-56433717301894981942013-05-11T13:13:46.211-04:002013-05-11T13:13:46.211-04:00If we don't need relegation playoffs because y...If we don't need relegation playoffs because you can just drop the bottom team in each bracket, why do we need semifinals? We should just have the top team in each bracket go straight to finals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-17397644241700363772013-05-11T13:10:35.585-04:002013-05-11T13:10:35.585-04:00Baca:
Didn't someone earlier in this thread c...Baca:<br /><br />Didn't someone earlier in this thread complain that the only reason RL got relegated was because their bracket was tough?<br /><br />And didn't you reply that wasn't true because RL and CEP (in the same bracket) both got beat by Infamous and TonTons?<br /><br />That's why there's a relegation playoff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-51607168852201351052013-05-11T02:34:21.579-04:002013-05-11T02:34:21.579-04:00I know - it's just fun to poke the bear once i...I know - it's just fun to poke the bear once in a while - from a safe distance :P<br /><br />On a serious note, and why I agree with Missy, I prefer a system that does not include a "save" for Champions by having them play off against Challengers, at least one of them (ref. Kens suggestion), for several reasons:<br /><br />1. In order to improve the quality of the Challengers division faster, they need the experience of playing the Champions for a full event (before getting relegated) - It makes for a steeper learning curve.<br /><br />2. A system that allows for status quo throughout the season (if the Challengers lack quality to win the playoff games), defeats the whole purpose of a promotion/relegation scheme.<br /><br />3. To me, it is less important to maintain the 9th and 10th ranked Champions teams, than having a dynamic system allowing for "young hopefulls" to get their shot in the top division.<br /><br />I wish the MS would institute event to event promotion/relegation - I think it is far more exiting than season based promotion/relegation.... especially with the Euro 16 team pro division having quite a few teams that aren't really good enough for "pro", and a 32 team Semipro division having several teams good enough to have a shot in Pro.Nick Brockdorffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08058065730404049908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-5141281762379417172013-05-10T18:55:53.386-04:002013-05-10T18:55:53.386-04:00Nick
Why not simply have the bottom team in each C...Nick<br />Why not simply have the bottom team in each Champions bracket be relegated? Why institute a "playoff" to avoid relegation? My point was the playoff to avoid relegation was implemented not on the basis of any arguement about the merits but largely to provide additional dramatic webcast matches.<br />Whereas having the top two Challengers play the bottom two Champs makes all the competitive sense in the world. You want a chance to be the best you have to earn it against that events worst Champions. Pretty simple really.<br /><br />430 Anon<br />An interesting idea.Baca Locohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-83143384952721603102013-05-10T17:18:25.411-04:002013-05-10T17:18:25.411-04:00Maybe he means they need to be disciplined?
"...Maybe he means they need to be disciplined?<br /><br />"You have been BAD boys RL! - No more borscht for you!" :PNick Brockdorffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08058065730404049908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-57768273334623136032013-05-10T17:07:30.399-04:002013-05-10T17:07:30.399-04:00You have a valid point, but the correct term is &q...You have a valid point, but the correct term is "relegated". Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-48925745246733269712013-05-10T16:43:53.958-04:002013-05-10T16:43:53.958-04:00** Shouldn't be regulated** Shouldn't be regulatedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-64830304118373790422013-05-10T16:43:11.150-04:002013-05-10T16:43:11.150-04:00Several people feel that the Russians should be re...Several people feel that the Russians should be regulated - after 40% of the season they are in fact the 9th ranked team in the league - and CEP is the 10th ranked team in the league. Simple because the lower teams (Vicious, 187, etc..) were limited to no higher than 11th place and the Russians and CEP were getting 10th or better regardless of outcome.<br /><br />I'm not saying 187 is better or vicious is better, but they deserve a chance to prove it - the same chance both CEP and the Russians had (for two events) and failed to prove they belong.<br /><br />If you based it off of season standings last year, Impact wouldn't have been in the champion's bracket this year - they finished 0-4 at cup with 187 beating them 7-3. Vicious was 3-1 at cup but failed to make finals based on some bad luck and math.<br /><br />I'm not convienced every event is the right way, but it's tough to say that CEP and the Russian's didn't have their chances to prove they belonged.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-79952445799560416362013-05-10T16:30:07.375-04:002013-05-10T16:30:07.375-04:00Regarding the slow games...
Hockey has icing to p...Regarding the slow games...<br /><br />Hockey has icing to prevent winning teams from stalling the clock. Basketball has the 5 second rule for similar reasons.<br /><br />Why not do this. If a team is up on bodies they have 2 minutes to close out the point. Otherwise it's a draw.<br /><br />Once you get up on bodies that secondary clock starts ticking away.<br /><br />A variation of this would be for every 2 minutes that go by when your team is up on bodies, the "losing" team gets another body back on the field. In this scenario, eliminated players would go straight to the penalty box. Once the two minutes runs out, if the game is still going on, that eliminated player get re-insert.<br /><br />It introduces a bit of action, and provides an incentive for a team up on bodies to keep pushing down the field rather than camping out and holding their lanes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-21595992452896332642013-05-10T16:22:01.211-04:002013-05-10T16:22:01.211-04:00I agree with Missy throughout this whole debate - ...I agree with Missy throughout this whole debate - everything is on point!<br /><br />Baca: I'm sorry man, but your argument lacks consistency.<br /><br />You say the Champions playoff to avoid relegation is there purely for drama..... but then would the playoff you suggest be?<br /><br />The consistent thing to say, would be "no playoff, it's only there for drama anyway" I think?<br /><br />Ken: Your suggestion holds merit! - It gives us the best of two worlds, and adds the benefit of the Challengers final actually having meaning - and at the same time, only the bracket last place needs to play off in Champions.<br /><br />As for the rest of the debate:<br /><br />Paintball has always crowned event winners - except for the NXL, which failed partly because of that lacking dynamic.<br /><br />But now, we suddenly have a problem with event losers? - Because relegation is in play??<br /><br />If we want season based sports, we can do that, just copy the system from any major sport..... but we have always been a play off sport - we all thrive on the adrenaline of "win or go home".<br /><br />So, I don't know why people in paintball are all of a sudden so concerned with season champs? - we never used to be, and frankly I think most teams would take a WC win, over a season win full of 2nd places ;)Nick Brockdorffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08058065730404049908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-12973337061774445542013-05-10T15:08:36.134-04:002013-05-10T15:08:36.134-04:00There may be faults in the system. There's fau...There may be faults in the system. There's faults in any sport. Part of the issues arise because this system was hastily developed and as far as I know, the format wasn't fully developed before it was announced. So it's hard to figure out any potential faults when you aren't even finished with the product. <br /><br />Basically in order to fit 15/16 teams into a 12 team division, a change was needed so it was rushed. <br /><br />Once it's all figured out, I think the champions/challengers will be a really good format.NTranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05563598223408981833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-48074482125479264212013-05-10T14:33:54.334-04:002013-05-10T14:33:54.334-04:00"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of li..."A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."<br /><br />Had Emerson lived in the age of blogs, no doubt "bloggers and pundits" would have made an appearance in that quote.<br /><br />Here's a simple truth. Many things sound good on paper. When you see the results and consider the larger implications you decide maybe it's not so good.<br /><br />Here is a very plausible theory. Relegation drops the "undeserving" teams at the bottom of the season, because there was a larger pool of teams to draw from at the first event. When the pool of teams gets smaller that you are dropping from at subsequent events, you run the risk of dropping title/marquee teams. <br /><br />It's good for no one (viewers, PBA, challengers or champions division) to have Russians sit out an event.<br /><br />Something else to consider, for those who cling foolishly to consistency. The PSP changes things every year. They say, "Hey, that seemed like a good idea, now that we've done it, it wasn't the greatest." <br /><br />It would make more sense to have an "open" event #1 and then relegate the bottom teams for the rest of the season.<br /><br />The fact of the matter is that 187 could barely beat a weak looking Thunder, and even then they beat them with the help of some crazy bad calls at the last minute. The same goes for Vicious against Storm.<br /><br />Neither of those teams are preferable or better than the Russians. <br /><br />When you consider how the stacked deck of bracketing factors into overall team performance, combined with fewer number of Champions to cut from, your odds of cutting a top team increases. <br /><br />People didn't complain when XSV, Upton, etc. dropped because those teams were actually bottom performers. XSV might be debatable based on the NPPL, but that team struggles in 5man, combined with the fact that they can't push the reffing limits as far. <br /><br />When the rules match up with what you expect to happen, you say, "ya looks good." When the rules yield a different result it makes sense to question them.<br /><br />To hold the ship steady at all costs is foolish.<br /><br />Not saying they should change things around this season as that ship as sailed. But the results are sub-par. If we see another top team drop down in Chicago, and Russians and Thunder move back up, we'll have to wonder what the point of all this is.<br /><br />Relegation and promotion makes sense. But this system is most likely artificially introducing too much carnage. I suppose we'll see if the Russians were just a fluke or notaf.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-49954441291795112002013-05-10T12:06:27.238-04:002013-05-10T12:06:27.238-04:00I'm the "dumb" Anon...only reason I ...I'm the "dumb" Anon...only reason I asked such an off-the-cuff question is due to the fact the Russians spend more money than any other team to play the PSP. They travel a similar distance to Ton Tons, but they also arrive weeks ahead of time to practice, practice, practice before the event. That's uber expensive regardless of how well off the owner is. <br /><br />Arguably, they are also the most loyal team to the PSP. With that in mind, I could make a case either way as to whether they stick it out or pull the plug.<br /><br />That's one organization that you really don't want to play when they have a chip on their shoulder. With the right mindset in their camp, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see them 7-Up every game in Chi-town, place top four in Cali, and win Cup. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-65597042682276966532013-05-10T11:43:46.222-04:002013-05-10T11:43:46.222-04:00I'm curious. To the people upset about RL bein...I'm curious. To the people upset about RL bein relegated, were you proponents of this system or unaware of how it worked exactly? At a minimum, every team competing in champs/challengers knew how this system worked so we aren't surprised by this. <br /><br />The system is working exactly how it is supposed to. Top teams stay. Mediocre to bottom teams can drop and challenger teams get a chance to get a taste of pro competition. Every team has to play harder because anyone can drop. NTranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05563598223408981833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-71514191336829377482013-05-10T11:27:22.293-04:002013-05-10T11:27:22.293-04:00"I could easily see this happening to even Dy..."I could easily see this happening to even Dynasty if they had a bad event, with all the guys yelling at each other, and now they're relegated. F-that some of the core guys might say"<br /><br />If Dynasty didn't say that after a horrendous 2012 campaign I don't that'd happen after just one PSP event. I would think the same applies to all the powerhouse teams you're trying to protect. They are made of sterner stuff (or they wouldn't have made it this far, no)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-48672452669080912922013-05-10T11:14:33.039-04:002013-05-10T11:14:33.039-04:00@7:10: Don't be dumb.
It didn't change im...@7:10: Don't be dumb.<br /><br />It didn't change immediately when XSV got relegated last event, did it?<br /><br />Things change. History aside, Moscow just isn't a top-8 team right now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-26102527796848806472013-05-09T20:32:46.385-04:002013-05-09T20:32:46.385-04:007:10 Anon, it would change immediately if RL was s...7:10 Anon, it would change immediately if RL was sponsored by anyone that matters to the PSP (Kee or Dye). Since they are not, it wouldn't matter.<br /><br />I'd actually be more worried about the Russian owner saying, "You know what you guys are not only wasting my money, but getting relegated too... plus after all the money I've spent with the PSP and all the money I've spent to get my team to the PSP over the years, they relegate me after a single event, RL is over."<br /><br />I don't know anything about that organization, but it would be a shame if relegation destroyed a powerhouse team.<br /><br />I could easily see this happening to even Dynasty if they had a bad event, with all the guys yelling at each other, and now they're relegated. F-that some of the core guys might say.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-7357183940135941392013-05-09T19:10:39.403-04:002013-05-09T19:10:39.403-04:00How fast would this system change if the Russians ...How fast would this system change if the Russians didn't register for Chicago out of protest?<br /><br />I have no reason to believe they would do that...just curious what y'all think.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-54781288905116447792013-05-09T17:01:54.025-04:002013-05-09T17:01:54.025-04:00The best teams are in Champions. They're Dyna...The best teams are in Champions. They're Dynasty and Tampa Bay Damage.<br /><br />It's just like advancing teams to Sunday. You take 4 teams. You might not get the exact 4 teams playing the best that day - maybe the 3rd place team in one bracket is playing better than the 2nd place team in the other bracket. But you're not trying to get the best 4 teams out of prelims. You're trying to get the best 2 teams, and to make sure you get the best two, you take the top 4 scoring teams and let them decide who really is the best 2 on the field in semifinals.<br /><br />The Russians may be the 11th-best team. They may be the 9th-best team. But they're definitely not the 5th-best team, and they got (temporarily) relegated.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-15622221892756145062013-05-09T16:16:28.641-04:002013-05-09T16:16:28.641-04:00I totally see your point Anon 3.28, but whether te...I totally see your point Anon 3.28, but whether teams stay in Champions or not is defined by their own performance in their bracket. It has always been this way. What's changed is that now there is a consequence to poor performance where there was not one before. Everyone thought these consequences would only affect the weaker teams, and 'so what?' However, once it effects a powerhouse team it's a huge problem. We can't have it both ways...<br />Most sports that use promotion/relegation do so seasonally rather than per event.; I'm not against this in theory but that would create it's own issues, with teams imploding once they realise after event 3 that they will be relegated for the entire following season. Players will start to bail right at that point. At least now the players can stay as they can get back into the Champions division within the same season.<br /><br />The purpose of the PSP is not to provide great veiwing for PBA. It is to provide an officiated and organised forum for competitive paintball where the best teams can win if they play well enough. Clearly the Russions didn't play well enough in this case.<br /><br />I don't doubt that RL can beat 187 all day long. If England's soccer team hadn't had to play Sweden in the Q-finals of the Euro-cup, and had been drawn against Poland instead, they might have gone on to win the Cup. But their performance in the competition leading up to the Q-finals was not good enough, so they got the tougher draw and lost. This does not mean there is a flaw in the system. The 'luck' of the draw will always influence sports. Missy Qnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-43840565934671783892013-05-09T15:28:54.028-04:002013-05-09T15:28:54.028-04:00MissyQ - put 187 against RL and 187 will lose 9 ou...MissyQ - put 187 against RL and 187 will lose 9 out of 10 times. Better performing takes on different meaning when you are literally comparing apples to oranges. Upton advances against a weaker Thunder and Vicious and Storm battle it out. Storm looked stronger than either Thunder or Upton.<br /><br /><br />The brackets this season will decide more teams fates than the independent performance potential of each team.<br /><br />The Champions league is not showing the best performing teams in absolute. It's showing the best performing teams within the confines of it's flawed bracketing, scheduling, and relegation/promotion system.<br /><br />It would be a mistake to presume that the "best" teams are in Champions. The some teams outside of Champions are better than those that are in.<br /><br />The luck of the draw combined with minimal games (not even mentioning reffing issues) really amplifies these problems.<br /><br />If the Russians have a cake walk all over the Challengers next event, it will be shown to be a failure. They don't belong there, and it's clear they were moved down too arbitrarily.<br /><br />Next, there is the real risk of immediate relegation destroying some teams. I could see some teams imploding based on added weight from the immediate relegation after a single event (compared to a year). There is no reason to put extra stress on an already unprofitable venture of running a pro team.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-26777258195226113402013-05-09T14:17:55.827-04:002013-05-09T14:17:55.827-04:00Anon 2.01
If the purpose of the Champions div is ...Anon 2.01 <br />If the purpose of the Champions div is to showcase the most popular teams with the best hitorical track record then you're making sense.<br />If the purpose of the Champions league is to have the best performing teams in that division then we can only to judge that on results and points won, not though arbitrary decision-making that favors the more popular teams at a cost to others.Missy Qnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-39778206744036586152013-05-09T14:01:36.078-04:002013-05-09T14:01:36.078-04:00Put it another way. If 187 and/or Vicious drop dow...Put it another way. If 187 and/or Vicious drop down and Russians pop back up, it shows the relegation system based on 1 event is a failure. (CEP probably won't make it back up, Tx Storm will, they looked great, much better than 187)<br /><br />All that will be said is that we basically "benched" the Russians so we could give 187 the limelight and then "benched" 187 and put the Russians back in.<br /><br />If you were a coach managing players, that wouldn't make sense. For a league managing teams and the quality of its webcast this doesn't make sense either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com