tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post568138235876783819..comments2024-01-19T00:21:36.058-05:00Comments on View from the Deadbox: The Coming Decline of Pro Paintball, part 2Baca Locohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-20431303732232765422014-09-07T22:38:01.576-04:002014-09-07T22:38:01.576-04:00Thanks for posting this, I must admit I’ll come ba...Thanks for posting this, I must admit I’ll come back to read more of your work, very informative. <br /><br />www.n8fan.netjojohttp://www.n8fan.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-83008669498280156872013-11-17T15:24:39.458-05:002013-11-17T15:24:39.458-05:00Fedorov is an anomaly that even e Russians don'...Fedorov is an anomaly that even e Russians don't know how to recreate.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-54960009155965022402013-11-17T02:44:04.954-05:002013-11-17T02:44:04.954-05:00NewPro
I will grant you it's an interesting to...NewPro<br />I will grant you it's an interesting topic for disagreement but that's really all it is, at its best.<br /><br />The skill sets of each era are molded by both the formats and technology and deciding which era or player is/was better isn't anything that can be reasonably quantified.<br /><br />But if you want to argue about stuff try these on.<br />Neither Heat or Trauma fit your description.<br />Put Vicious and OG Shock on a three acre tournament woodsball field with the OG gear and Shock eats their lunch, all day every day.<br />K-Fed :)Baca Locohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-47492751698943138632013-11-16T21:02:25.761-05:002013-11-16T21:02:25.761-05:00I guess I should've been more specific, there ...I guess I should've been more specific, there have been many comments on OG pros vs new pros, coached pros vs non-coached pros.<br /><br />Lets use the closest parallels<br /><br />The best non OG race to 7 vs the best open Xball<br /><br />Heat Vs Trauma<br /><br />The best OG woodsball vs the best woodsball today<br /><br />Shock vs Vicious<br /><br />Federov vs youngblood<br /><br /><br />Although we cant compare BL 96 ironmen vs todays RL,formats being the factor, knowing how pros played "back in the day", what would happen if we reversed and took a team from today and put them "back in the day". I believe they would destroy???<br /><br />As always, thx for your time coachNewPronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-66683665146099611602013-11-16T19:43:31.563-05:002013-11-16T19:43:31.563-05:00NewPro
Playing across the divisions in the prelims...NewPro<br />Playing across the divisions in the prelims--as per the old days--was objected to eventually by the divisional teams. Imagine a bracket where you play the top Pro or Am team in your bracket and your nearest competition ends up with a much easier bracket. In order to offer some kind of competitive balance to divisional play they stopped mixing the divisions and the only teams that objected were the ones that never expected to win anything.<br /><br />AS for your match-ups we need to determine the format. Are we playing 10-man, full Xball or Race 2-7? For example Heat will lose at 10-man and their regular 6 are gonna have a hard time playing 50 minutes.Baca Locohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-32367615074960260862013-11-16T18:14:04.852-05:002013-11-16T18:14:04.852-05:00I think he may be referring to the PRO/AM split of...I think he may be referring to the PRO/AM split of yesteryear's, while I like this idea, the pros would argue that the 49'ers don't play against Texas A&M.<br /><br />Im curious as to your opinion coach<br />NXL Champs Trauma vs PSP 187<br />Strange vs Heat<br />BL Ironmen Vs todays ironmen<br /><br />NewPronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-30468410661320167232013-11-15T15:59:51.613-05:002013-11-15T15:59:51.613-05:001110 Anon
How did the top teams' players get a...1110 Anon<br />How did the top teams' players get all their experience? And what's different now from then?<br /><br />There is no unlimited amounts of practice. Baca Locohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-76570504738310554952013-11-15T11:10:52.175-05:002013-11-15T11:10:52.175-05:00I don't think we will ever see a team challeng...I don't think we will ever see a team challenge the top 5-6 Pro teams without spending some serious cash (i.e. Heat). Bridging the experience gap that the top teams have and the ability for unlimited amounts of practice against other top teams will keep that gap.<br /><br />There are very talented players (young phenoms) out there, but they won't get recognized because they are on a top tier team.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-87402869952355006562013-11-14T12:20:38.185-05:002013-11-14T12:20:38.185-05:00I feel that Baca is worried about the future of qu...I feel that Baca is worried about the future of quality of Pro paintball once the existing "old" guard group of players quit/retire/get injured. His argument is that the Challenger/D1/D2 teams do not have the rising talent at any age to fill the gap. <br />This may be a good thing. We may see a few years of Pro teams struggle to rebuild like the Russians are doing now. But, this is the chance for those players who have shown a spark of greatness to get the chance to move up. How much longer can we expect Dynasty to be completive? All of the core of the team is over 30, and around 35 seems to me where most players start a rapid decline. <br />One problem I see is that lower division teams no longer have the chance to play a game or two against higher division teams at tournaments. I know this is next to impossible now, but in the past it really gave teams a chance to see some of the up and coming players in action. Do any of the established pro teams pay a whole lot of attention to D1 games?<br />I also feel the decline in sponsorship dollars has pretty much done away with the "farm" teams that some of the Pro teams used to have. Teams are hurting more now than ever for the money they need to make an event and have good solid practices in between events. They can't afford to siphon off money with the chance that a few kids on the farm team will be able to make the jump. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-64867387058664234522013-11-14T10:22:55.095-05:002013-11-14T10:22:55.095-05:00138 Anon
The lessons most often learned thru exper...138 Anon<br />The lessons most often learned thru experience in the past can be taught.<br />With respect to cheating it's nothing new but institutionalizing cheating is counterproductive.<br /><br />Chris<br />That's an interesting take and probably has some merit but it doesn't account for the lack of prospects from the ranks of today's divisional yutes.Baca Locohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-67317498998441689922013-11-14T09:15:55.852-05:002013-11-14T09:15:55.852-05:00How much of the decline is simply economic? Ten ye...How much of the decline is simply economic? Ten years ago, paintball was the up-and-coming extreme sport. Visions of TV, outside sponsorships, and lucrative pro contracts danced in our heads. The money (and related momentum) helped attract young players. Today's veterans used to be those players. Now the dreams of money are gone, and we're (headed) back to being a hobby sport. If you can't make money running a pro team, why would we expect lots of gifted young athletes to devote their lives to the game?Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13038400110753383819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-67376103513650414222013-11-14T01:38:49.937-05:002013-11-14T01:38:49.937-05:00I think that too many posters for this topic are f...I think that too many posters for this topic are focused on age, and trying to prove that today's older players are going to play for longer times due to reasons x, y, & z...but I don't think that age has anything to do with it.<br /><br />I believe that today's divisional players, or the xball only generation, lack skills that were previously considered necessities (communication, ambidextrous gun skills, & field awareness), because of the work-arounds built into the rules.<br /><br />As far as the conceptualization that you keep referring to Baca, part of that comes from a foundation of skills, but the rest comes from experience. It might not always be experience against their current division, but it's almost always a been there, done that type of feeling that drives the conceptualization process. Higher divisions hone that more as they experience more, driving their contemporaries with the same process.<br /><br />I think another contributor to the erosion of skill sets is cheating. I have witnessed teams devote practice time to cheating, & have heard players discuss cheating tactics & methods at national events.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-23057040404981353392013-11-13T13:53:45.462-05:002013-11-13T13:53:45.462-05:00As the game has progessed, many of the older pros ...As the game has progessed, many of the older pros seem to have realized the benefits of off-field training: Diet,gym,etc. Coupled with experience, not only is the shelf-life of the pro player extended, their improved fitness makes them more dangerous. <br /><br />Im not going to bore anyone to death with stats but I assume its safe to say that the shelf-life of MLB players is significantly longer than their physically assaulted counter parts as long as they commit to a healthy training program. <br /><br />NewPronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-47453443003001278952013-11-13T10:53:58.054-05:002013-11-13T10:53:58.054-05:00If you go back to how paintball events used to be ...If you go back to how paintball events used to be you'd see a dramatic change. Woods fields plus concept/speed fields. Different layouts every other game. <br /><br />The generation that played then was "better" (certainly they lacked some specific technical but easily learned sup air techniques). The generation that was immediately trained by those guys also got it. <br /><br />Now we have people who were only raised by x ball. All I hear them talk about is "edging" or running and gunning to the corner etc. They have to clue about coordinating lanes of fire or just barely understand zones, other than to cross up if you're losing (even then they don't have the focus in their short attention spans to maintain it.) <br /><br />But really that might be too harsh... Watching Impact play X factor I got the feeling they couldn't figure that out either.... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-17089038908317852852013-11-13T09:47:14.693-05:002013-11-13T09:47:14.693-05:00One thing I'd like to interject is that the cu...One thing I'd like to interject is that the current generation of which you speak also coincides with what I would call the "uber supervised generation" Mom's, terrified of child abductions, meet their kids at the bus stop less than a block from home, even rural street corners now have a crossing guard, they are never permitted any REAL alone time where individuality and self reliance give birth in their little skulls of mush. I see them 16-18 years old at my field still dropped off by Mom or hitching rides with 20-something teammates because they have yet to get a drivers license or in many cases not even a learners permit, and seem quite ok with it too. Forget any of them having a job by the age of 18 too. Remember playing dress-up? Not these 18 year old "children" they all dress like they're still 13. Today the new adult age is 22 or 23 and rising, where the alone time finally takes hold right in the middle of their 3rd year (of 6) of their 4 year college degree. Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-65206908317823475142013-11-13T09:26:22.582-05:002013-11-13T09:26:22.582-05:00No Baca, you can't say that about long careers...No Baca, you can't say that about long careers because for every long career there are probably 50 very short careers. So although the statistics for professional sports leagues you quoted are probably factual, the careers of those that actually have what it takes to play at that level and SHOULD be playing at that level is longer than those numbers indicate.<br /><br />But I agree that there isn't as big a push from the bottom in paintball as there should be to bump older players off the top. That has to do with the cost to participate and the fact that most true athletes are going to pursue other sports where the return on invbestment is bigger (i.e. scholarships & a chance at the golden goose).Reiner Schaferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11735297279972068471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-64381098735027696682013-11-13T02:23:39.544-05:002013-11-13T02:23:39.544-05:00Chris
If you knew what a talented paintball player...Chris<br />If you knew what a talented paintball player looked like I might be inclined to consider<br /><br /><br /><br />Reiner <br />You claim short careers skew the averages. I could say the same about long careers. The issue isn't when a player peaks it is the fact that there is a constantly repeating class of younger competitors pushing everyone in the system. Some prove to be better than the established crop and some don't which creates a lot of turnover. In paintball nobody is pushing and there is damn little competition from below to take an established player's spot--or even force them to work harder to stay on top.Baca Locohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-12819595795493113272013-11-13T00:01:37.706-05:002013-11-13T00:01:37.706-05:00Edit to my above post - SC Village on the weekend ...Edit to my above post - SC Village on the weekend now is kinda lame….and if "THE" SC Village is lame, what are other spots around the US like? splatkid10noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-88430810640294795932013-11-12T23:59:55.071-05:002013-11-12T23:59:55.071-05:00I was thinking many of the points that Reiner and ...I was thinking many of the points that Reiner and raehl brought up (never thought I'd agree with him). The issue of age is less important than in other pro sports because well, the NBA, NFL, MLS, etc. are more physically demanding. And even if those sports were not more physically demanding, I bet that the athletes playing in the professional levels in major/popular sports are superior athletes to the top level athletes in paintball. <br /><br />A life dedicated to being a striker for a European football club will breed a faster and stronger athlete when compared to the fireman who happens to play paintball every weekend. <br /><br />This all starts to indicate that the age, from a physical perspective, isn't as important as you reason. I think the reason most pro paintball players were "retiring" early in their 30's was maybe due more to the fact that life started to catch up with them. They could not make enough $ playing paintball and "Real life" whatever that was, caught up to them. Maybe it was a wife that didn't like them gone as much, or the fact that the promotion at work prevented them from traveling as much, who knows.<br /><br />I think the level of play that is to come will be more dependent on the health of the tournament industry at local fields. Do kids have a place to play every weekend? Can they attend national events to gain experience on the bigger stage at the higher divisional levels? If you look at the current crop of 20 something pros that came from SoCal (think aftermath, HK kids, etc.) I'd be willing to bet that a field like SC village 5-8 years ago was WAY more busy on a weekend and that more pro teams/players were out there as well. splatkid10noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-69638144719712563162013-11-12T23:41:31.948-05:002013-11-12T23:41:31.948-05:00MMA ("UFC") fighters typically don't...MMA ("UFC") fighters typically don't "peak" until between 25-28 years of age. Unless they are a physical freak like a Jon Jones.<br /><br />Soccer players also last until well into their late 20's.MikeMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-56600476887889956502013-11-12T20:31:52.658-05:002013-11-12T20:31:52.658-05:00Those average career lengths Baca pulled out of th...Those average career lengths Baca pulled out of the statistics book also include the careers of many players who only last a few weeks or months, which majorly skews the numbers downward. Those players are called up to the big leagues, are seen as not having what it takes to get to a peak that is worthwhile, so are sent packing. There are lots of them. We just forget them very quickly.<br /><br />But if you look at the stats of players in the NHL ( the sport I am most familiar with), you will see that most of them have their best years well into their 20's. It takes a while for them to reach their peak. I can't see why paintball would be any different. The problem with paintball is that most players can't afford to hold on long enough to get even close to their peak. Playing for 10 or 15 years paying your own way in paintball can drain just about anyone... and to what end? For the glory? So you can be adored by 15 year old agglets who want to be just like you when they grow up (spending many of your best years missing out on developing a real career)?Reiner Schaferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11735297279972068471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-57131141169033246142013-11-12T19:50:00.920-05:002013-11-12T19:50:00.920-05:00@Baca: NFL and NHL are both pretty brutal from a ...@Baca: NFL and NHL are both pretty brutal from a physical abuse / injury perspective; even NBA has its fair share of injuries and a fairly long, intense season.<br /><br />I'm also not sure that length of Pro career alone tells the full story. Do your MLB numbers include time spent in the minors for example?<br /><br />The average age of a MLB player is apparently 27.2, so if the average career length is 5.5 years, that would put the average starting age of MLB players at about 23-24 or so - so they're doing something between high school and MLB to get the experience they need to be effective Pros. Incidentally the average age of all-star game players is 29.1.<br /><br /><br />So I would say paintball just has a temporary "bubble" in Pro career length, because the current crop of pros happened to break the "athleeticism barrier" in paintball so they were the best when they were 18-20 and have been getting better since. We won't have room for more than a handful of the most talented new players until the current batch of pros gets old enough that the physical effects of age start to overwhelm the experience advantage, and even then new pros will be older than we're used to simply because that'll be the experience level required to be good.<br /><br /><br />Short version: The absense of a crop of 15 or 16 or 18 year old phenoms should be expected, not a surprise nor regarded as a problem. Why would anyone expect a kid with 6 years of experience to be able to compete with a player with 20, especially in a sport where the 30-year-old player doesn't have 8 years of tackles/concussions/torn tendons/ligaments/etc under his belt?raehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14311405248370629057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-68226088178274090882013-11-12T18:29:46.086-05:002013-11-12T18:29:46.086-05:00Your argument is based on age of new players or at...Your argument is based on age of new players or at least thats what i think your getting at. <br /><br />So why don't you look at the average age of pro players at world cup for the past i don't know maybe 5 to 10 years. <br /><br />I think what you will find is that the new pro player is 25-27 years old while the old guys the ones that it might be there last season are 30-35. <br />This would change the conversation quite a bit because now young is thought as 25 and like you were saying is that the game has become more physically demanding and hence your pro players are now more fit and can compete in their later years. while they are retiring later their metal game continues to improve making it hard for younger plays to adapt to the pro level. It really all makes sense our game is maturing in a good way. we just need to fix a few things to adapt to this new level of play we are seeing because it obviously is working.<br /><br />For instance in the divisions the best teams in d4 and pretty damn good in d3 and the best d3 teams can compete in d2. <br /><br />Look at what 187 did and Vicious. <br /><br />Now lets look at the upper divisions in past years make the jump from d1 or even semi pro to pro and guess what your lucky if you dont get last let alone win a event.<br /><br /> now this year was a little different with challengers vs champs but didnt we just see mostly the same teams go back and forth?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-40880410462713390052013-11-12T18:10:53.776-05:002013-11-12T18:10:53.776-05:00raehl & Reiner
The average length of career in...raehl & Reiner<br />The average length of career in the NBA is 4.8 years. The NFL is 3.5 years. MLB is 5.6 and the NHL is 5.5. <br />The overwhelming majority of one time pro players are out of their game by their late 20s.Baca Locohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13014510414015288907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3804718502406028481.post-32957597016953722802013-11-12T16:52:55.428-05:002013-11-12T16:52:55.428-05:00raehl, I agree and was thinking the same thing as ...raehl, I agree and was thinking the same thing as I was reading Baca'a post. Even hockey players most often don't peak until their mid twenties. Goalies usually considerably older still because their position is less physically exhausting, but needs more mental concentration.Reiner Schaferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11735297279972068471noreply@blogger.com