Tuesday, September 4, 2012

Interview with Phil Veatch, captain of Phx Contact

Who is Phoenix Contact? Roster wise, we have a lot of players in the organization. The Pro team will be Myself, Zak Smith, Jeff Milam, Joe Vuica, Hondo Fimbres, Jon Buot, Keaton Sorey, Brent Nielsen, Mike Condon and Josh Garcia.

How did the NPPL hear about Contact? The majority of the experience on the team has history with the NPPL. When we built the team we decided to play Vegas as it was the format we are most familiar with and it is close to home. We initially registered as D1, and as an error or computer glitch, the NPPL system had put us as registered under pro. We laughed about it a little bit, but also kind of got to thinking about it as well. They ultimately corrected their mistake, but a good number of people noticed and where reaching out to us with some questions. We decided to contact the NPPL in regards to the availability of a pro spot, with no expectations really, and they informed us there were 3 other teams interested in Mutiny's spot and they were reviewing each to determine the most qualified team. They told us to submit our roster and resume, so I wrote up about a page long resume on the team, the players, our organization, goals, and history and sent it over. Once again, not really expecting anything to come of it, but thought why not give it a shot?

Did they approach you or vice versa? We approached them, but the story also has a prelude with Team RM, Team Phoenix Alliance, and ourselves, approaching the league, together to try to make sense of bringing 7man back to Arizona. This may have started the thought process.

What do you think it is about Contact that produced a positive response from the league? Honestly, I think its the type of organization that we are and the region we are in. The way that I, along with Joe Vuica and Tony Conesa, established the organization was based as a business, not just a group of guys that get together on the weekend and play paintball. We have a management/owner system with financial support and a solid structural base. When I started what is now Portland Uprising (Uprising Nation at the time) in my backyard in 2004, I established that team in the same way. Also, Arizona is a PSP state. There are teams that would like to play 7man, but the support for it is non-existent. We are hoping to re-establish the 7man presence a little bit out here in the desert.

How will Contact re-establish a 7-man presence in AZ? By simply existing? The short answer is yes. There are teams here that want to play 7man and have tried to continue, but the dominance of the Xball format has driven the fields to really only have xball field kits. If the 7man format continues, we will bring in a new 7man field kit.

How long has Contact been a team? Contact has been in development since May of this year. It is a collaboration of programs that had certain pieces, but didn't have the whole puzzle needed for success.

How many events has the team competed in? At what level of competition? The team has not competed in any events under this name. However, there are 4 former pro players and a D1 player making up the core of the team, some of which have played events together in the past, others who have competed for many years, and a diverse up and coming talent base that has been in development with other teams for some time. This will undoubtedly be our biggest criticism, and we will feel the pains of coming together. But so far, that challenge has been well accepted and we are hoping to continue the progress.

What do you think has prepared the team to take this step? The development of this team from square one was to establish a professional, marketable, and sustainable organization in Arizona. It has been our plan to make a pro spot from the development, but would have never guessed or even been as bold as to imagine it would have come at this point. However, the structure is in place and the skill is here, it just needs to be organized. Organizationally, we are prepared to take the step, as many of us have been here before, the readiness will come with maturity of the team and the time we spend over the course of the next season.

Who are the former Pros on the roster and who did they play with in the past?
Myself - The Naughty Dogs (Semi Pro- Uprising/Elevation)
Zak Smith - Phoenix United
Mike Condon -Cartel (pro/am days) (Bonebrake factory D1 in the modern age)
Jeff Milam - Strange/Ironmen/Elevation

Does Contact have any goals or expectations for Vegas? In reality, no ... there's no way to set them. Our goal is to survive the event and prove that we can hold our own on the field. Maybe turn a head or two, and learn from the experience.

Goals for 2013? The goals for 2013 are really going to be dependent on our sponsors and the NPPL. We will be playing in 2013, and will continue with the NPPL pro division, unless circumstances outside our control take precedence in the off season.

What makes Phil Veatch the right guy to lead Contact? Well, to be honest, I don't have a straight answer for you. I have a long resume though so I'll do my best to keep it brief. I have been playing paintball for 16 years, competitively for 13, and always been the captain or in a leadership role on every team I have been on other than the Naughty Dogs. I started playing national events with team Nurv in D3 moving eventually through the ranks to Semi-Pro. In the meantime, myself and Nurv parted ways and I established team Uprising along with helping establish Blacklist Media to help promote and market the team. Uprising played local NW events our first year and always placed in the top 4. The team had a rocky patch with some of the players leaving, and we merged with a team called Amp'd to play D1 NPPL in 2006. At this time I was also playing with the Naughty Dogs in the NXL. After some fallout with the teams, I turned my attention back to rebuilding Uprising in 2007 where we played 2 events in Semi-pro with moderate success, more than I would have expected, before once again falling apart when I decided to take time off for college. Ultimately the Uprising guys kept it together and in 2010 made the jump to NPPL pro and had intended to include me, but I had moved to Arizona. I gave the team to Tommy Tucker and watched him take it to where it is today. During this time I played with Scottsdale Elevation before they also took time off. All throughout these experiences, one thing showed over and over, the lack of sustainable structure and support. When I started building Contact, it was built under a business, and our goals were to be a professional organization, whether we played professional or not. The sponsors we have, the approach we have taken, and the way we have structured the management all reflect those goals. Ultimately though, I am not doing it alone. Joe and Tony have been instrumental in the development of this team as well as others. There is no way that I could have managed what has been built alone, and everyone within the organization is on board for the same goals.

Do you think it's good for competitive paintball to have a start-up team jump immediately into the pro ranks? Why? Honestly, no. I don't think it should be a habit. But it has happened before, numerous times, and Im sure it will happen again. I do feel that the NPPL is trying to build regional pro teams similar to other professional sports, and when looking at expansion cities, you can either hope they develop on their own, or help facilitate the change. I believe that with the obvious success of the PSP in Arizona and the player base we have here it is no wonder the NPPL is interested in the market.

Thanks, Phil. VFTD appreciates the opportunity to introduce Phoenix Contact to the tourney community from your perspective. In closing I would like to thank you for taking the time and effort to introduce Phoenix Contact. I would also like to thank all of our sponsors - Kee Action Sports, AXE, Z2, Empire, Acid Custom Triggers, Boss Paintball, Modern Woodman of America, Fightertown Paintball, Westworld Paintball, The AZPPL, Mesa Paintball Supply, Censys Designs Lab, Custom Products, Raza, and KM. We have a tough road ahead, and the support of these companies are making it possible for us to have the best chances for success.

119 comments:

Anonymous said...

Nice gl

Anonymous said...

So you make Pro by signing up for an NPPL event and seeing if their registration system puts you in the wrong division?

Half the players on this team's roster played on Hellcats in D3 PSP Phoenix and got 25th of 26.

Seriously, what kind of "pro" team puts half their players into a D3 event, then LOSES every match? 5 points in the whole event. You guys can't even sandbag right.

God, on the small chance NPPL Pro wasn't a complete joke before, this seals the deal.

Gibby said...

Good luck in Vegas. I'll be there to support this team if the wife gives me a hall pass.

Anonymous said...

So the AZPPL is helping to finance your teams expenses. Just like before, the AZPPL was financing the Hellcats.

Anonymous said...

PSP did the same thing with Heat and they are leading the points race. Half of Heats guys were D2 players that had never won anything.
Everyone is just biased against NPPL.

Anonymous said...

AZPPL also financed Elevation....

Anonymous said...

Its funny because you can tell its the same person in different threads trying to talk crap. And he has no clue what is going on past or present from what I have read. Stop being salty kid get a life. Just trying to bag on these guys for trying to do something your not makes you a d-bag

Anonymous said...

Someone sounds bitter about an organization that they don't know about. It's funny how mostly kids from AZ are the main haters, and it's people probably not even playing NPPL. After reading through all the threads and drama on pbaz.com, even the ones taken down, people were bagging on Contact AFTER they asked to play with them for the event and got REJECTED. Second poster obviously wants attention, and is bitter about the current spot he's in hahaha. Hater's gonna hate! Do your thing contact! Don't let these idiots bother you.

Anonymous said...

Did someone just compare Contact to Heat? Are you on crack?

Heat was a combination of mostly players who had played the 2011 season on Red Legion and Aftershock and have already locked up the PSP season title.

Contact is a combination of players who either haven't played Pro in years, have never played pro at all, and half of whom just got 2nd to last in a D3 tournament.

This is a joke, plain and simple.

Anonymous said...

Snobbery has no place in paintball. These guys have as much right to play as anyone else, and I wish them good luck.

Anonymous said...

"Everyone has as much right to play as anyone else"? Maybe if your "Pro" division is a joke!

A "Pro" division that "everyone has a right to play in" isn't a pro division. The whole POINT of having a PRO division is that most people DON'T have a right to play there!

Anonymous said...

Seriously... why so upset? What's with all the exclamation points? (!)

The substance of your argument, is overwhelmed by the intensity and bias of your feelings. The fact that you are so frantically obsessed with this argument is nonsense.

A little less than half the NPPL pro teams aren't really cut out to be "pro" in the sense we're used to, but then again the same could be said with a handful of the PSP teams.

As far as "pro" teams go, and to use your words, when you focus on the the ability to win and play at the pro level, Aftershock is a joke, CEP is a joke, Thunder is a joke, Upton is a joke, Vicious is almost a joke. To be clear, the qualifier was, "as far as pro teams go". I respect all those teams and I think they are definitely top caliber D1/Semi Pro what have you. But while those teams are dangerous to play against, like any top D1 team, they aren't still looked at as contenders.

I wouldn't doubt that this new team could hang their own with any of the above teams mentioned.

I actually don't see those teams as a joke, just using your words. I would just say those teams aren't contenders for the top 3. And this new team won't be a contender for the top 3. I would also say most of those teams are lucky if they are even contenders to make it to Sunday. I'd say the same thing about this new team.

That doesn't make any of them a joke. They're pro because thats the division and level they want to play at and someone believes in them, and is willing to both accept them (on the league's side) and fund them (on the team's side).

If you think it takes anything more than that, you are the true joke.

Anonymous said...

All of the teams you listed compete in the PSP Pro division and have won matches. Even the worst, CEP, is playing the top teams every event and scoring points. That's top teams in the WORLD.

Half the players on Phoenix Contact played not Pro, not D1, not D2, but DIVISION 3 this year and goose-egged half their matches.

Saying a team can "hold their own" with even the worst PSP Pro teams when they can't even "hold their own" with PSP D3 teams is just plain delirious.

Contact would get ANNIHILATED by CEP.

This is a joke. But it's NPPL, so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. You do have one point. At least half of NPPL's Pro teams are also not really Pro teams, but shit, Contact isn't even D3.

Anonymous said...

"They're pro because thats the division and level they want to play at and someone believes in them, and is willing to both accept them (on the league's side) and fund them (on the team's side).

If you think it takes anything more than that, you are the true joke."

Got it - NPPL needed some cash and they'll take anyone who will pay it.

You guys buy your college degrees online for $99.95 too? You can be Pro players AND PhDs!

Anonymous said...

How can you claim this team would get ANNIHILATED? Do you know them or watch them play regularly? or ar e are you taking all your stats from 1 event where, it appears a few of the players played with a team that did poorly....? Paintball is a TEAM sport, and roster changes make a world of difference. Im not saying I think this team will contend. I think they'll get blown up. But I also think that its a little childish to keep referring to a event were some players played paintball and the end result wasnt ideal. Its paintball, you play paintball when you get the chance, and you lose most of the time.

Anonymous said...

If they were playing D2, you might be able to shrug off a one-off poor D3 event. But they're "going Pro". A real Pro team that puts 5 of their players in a D3 event is going to kill it. 5 Pro players can't "accidentally" lose every match in D3.

You can talk about the roster for Vegas being different - but it's different due to adding a couple D4 or D5 guys and a couple guys who haven't played Pro in years. It's not like playing for naughty dogs in 2007 compares in any way to playing on a Pro team in 2012. Different worlds.

It's pretty easy to realize this team would get annihilated by CEP. They'd probably get annihilated by the top half of PSP D1 too.

Only way I'd believe otherwise is if they showed up at Cup and played D1 and didn't get killed. I wouldn't hold by breath though.

Any way you cut it, this is a throw-together team of D3/D4/D5 players. That's what NPPL Pro has come to. Shame on them for selling you the Pro label, and shame on you for thinking it means anything other than NPPL is desperate.

Anonymous said...

You should at least have to prove yourself as a team before going Pro. At the very least win or finish strong at a couple of D1 events.

Anon 3:08PM says: "you play paintball when you get the chance, and you lose most of the time"

Not if you are a Pro team. You practice and play all the time. You don't lose to D3 teams even if you are handicapping yourself.

Anonymous said...

Wow.....such anger.......Its just a game. Pro paintball in reality is nothing like the NFL or NBA or any other REAL sport. Who cares who plays it. Its never been reserved for "The Best." Its whoever had the money, organization and support, and the structure of the division developed the teams to be able to compete. ^^ You sound like you have some major other resentment issues going on.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 4:21PM -- There are many factors such as money, organization, and support. However, at the end of the day, they still need to succeed on the field. Try hanging with even the lower level Pro teams and tell me that they aren't way beyond the skill level of D2/D3 teams.

NewPro said...

I could care less about 99% of the arguments in this particular topic but if a league is to be seen as credible and their Pro division is to have integrity, these guys shouldn't be there. Nothing against them, I'm sure their good guys but this was plain and simple, a cash grab. You shouldn't be able to "hop" in and play at the pro level, or buy your way in for that matter. It's not hate, its a fact, you're Pro division has to have a bar, even if its only an inch off of the ground. As for the "they can hang with Vicious", Shock, etc. Vicious won every div on their way to the top level. This was the proper/correct way to enter the pro ranks. Shock has been their for years. Maybe it's time to bring relegation into play, or at least have minimum requirements. Jesus, was an application even filled out :)

Anonymous said...

For people bashing Vicious. They have made Sunday a twice now and have been competitive almost every tournament. Also for Upton, they have played pretty strong for their first year and definitely will get better.

Missy Q said...

There is no application to become a Pro team. if there was, then maybe they could have filled one out, and maybe it would have been refused.
There is no governing body in paintball. If there was, maybe the application (that doesn't exist) would be rejected.
There is no minimum standard for a Pro team as per the regulations of the game. If there were, maybe they would hit that standard - maybe not.
There is no viable reason whatsoever for a team not to enter the pro division if thats what they want to do. It's not against the rules, it's not illegal, unethical or immoral.

The outrage above is beyond understanding. Many teams now accepted as Pro entered straight into that division. Heat did, so did Dynasty, so did XSV and many more. They had no pedigree as teams before they went Pro, only as individuals. Heat bought players so they could compete. These guys could do that too if they wished - or not - its their call.

There's no reflection on the NPPL for letting them in either. No rules have been broken. In fact if the PSP had let this team in most of this 'outrage' wouldn't have happened. Thats just a stone-cold fact.
I am just reading bitterness and resentment from divisional players (and under) who maybe think 'it should be me, not them'. Pretty pathetic really.
Time to face facts - Pro Paintball in any league is for people that can afford to give it a shot. Thats basically the criteria, and these guys met it, so what's the beef? There's no point comparing to other sports, or arguing about what 'should be'.

Anonymous said...

The point is Contact doesn't have a pedigree as a team AND the players on it don't have pedigree as individuals either.

There would be far more outrage if PSP let this team in. Of course, PSP wouldn't let them in, because at least in PSP, Pro isn't just for anyone who can afford to give it a shot.

Maybe the outrage isn't a bunch of divisional players who think it should be them. Maybe the outrage is from a bunch of paintball fans who think the word Pro should mean something other than "Willing to open wallet."

Anonymous said...

@anon 6:11PM
Do you know any of these players? From the interview it seems like some of them would fit into having what you might call "pedigree"....given its a couple years old. Seems like Phil has done some good things in the past anyway. Im a paintball fan, and I like when new pro teams come in, it spices things up a bit.

Oh, and Thunder in the PSP was basically just allowed in with a bunch of D2 players...... :/ and Corey Fields. I do however agree that the PSP has quite a different approach to their pro organizations, but this has happened there too.

Anonymous said...

There would be plenty of outrage if PSP let a team that just got 2nd to last in D3 move to Pro. How can anyone not be outraged by that?

Anonymous said...

You guys bring up CEP. They won D1 Psp overall. What else did they have to prove? Aftershock is a franchise that is older than some of the players on Contact. Vicious shouldn't even be mentioned in this list. The point is there is a pedigree that must be earned with hard work and RESULTS. I think I speak for a lot of the pro players by saying good luck to the roster of Contact. But for a league (NPPL) to allow a D3 team to play in their showcase division shows a lack of integrity and ultimately a sign of desperation. The only team that contact will beat is maybe Impact if Bart says so........ Good luck Contact.

Anonymous said...

The really funny part is apparently there were other teams that were interested and this was the BEST one!

Anonymous said...

where is everyone getting these guys rankings from? How could they be a D3 team?

Anonymous said...

it is funny how you can tell its the same person or persons that are salty.. Since you know so much these guys or organization or what they are all about why don't you man up KID and state your name or appa#. Thats right you wont because your sack hasn't dropped. On another note Gl guys you will need it in pro, hopefully you hold your own and grow.

Nick Brockdorff said...

First ever event Russian Legion played, they entered as Pro, wearing 70' throwback eastgerman tracksuits.

Nobody is laughing about them these days....

Also.... nobody is stopping some guy from buying Manchester United, one of the worlds largest sports franchises, and fielding a team of himself, relatives and friends.

Anyone can play Pro, in any sport, if they have the cash and inclination.

But, a good tool for stopping it from happening too much, is a league system with relegation and promotion.

I think it works quite well in Europe.

Anonymous said...

Let's play guess the hater(s) who are desperate keep spewing the same sh*t in hopes it changes anything for their team. Ryan or mike from elevation. Lmk what I win if I'm right.

Joe V. said...

.I doubt it is Ryan he has a pair to post something in his Name so if your going to call someone out you should do the same..I have nothing of respect for Most of the Elevation guys. And I want to say Thank you and please do not stop the hate on hear all it does is fuel my guys to work even harder. So again thank you it makes my job easier.

dan. said...

Actually CEP didnt take the D1 series. If I remember correctly it was TKO but they didn't have the cash and organization together at that time to make the bump.

But aside from people hating here on Contact - I wish them luck. And I think - I hope - some of it is perhaps misguided.

My $.02 is the nppl doesn't have the long term vision to have the league viable for years and years. They are already on version 3.0 and really if you count the format change it should be version 4.0. And I understand minor rules changes as sport evolves - but that ain't a minor change. And nppl cancelled the Vancouver event like 6 weeks after it was announced? I just think that is poor planning. This move to accept contact is another short term fix for long term ailments. I say that with this caveat, I don't have access to their books, or marketing strategy meetings etc. but from the outside it doesn't look great.

Bottom line, I think that is where this frustration lies.

Baca Loco said...

dan
Neither do they.

Anonymous said...

The PSP is the best league.

Anonymous said...

Good luck Contact. When Elevation and United played pro there was not nearly this much hate. Why now??

Anonymous said...

Thats true....and its funny because Elevation got their spot the same way didnt they?

Anonymous said...

Correct, and a majority of the hate is coming from 2 Elevation players. It sounds just like Ryan the Hater. Neither of which has ever played pro. The current Elevation is a re-boot merger of players from AZ. What sad is Jeff Milam and Phil both played with Elevation. Ryan treated the Rangers the same way when they decided to play HB D1. Arizona is full of haters. Instead of good luck to you, it's fuck you you suck.

Local support is more helpful than hate.

Julio Jones

Anonymous said...

So we've decided Contact is OK because the NPPL Pro division already doesn't have many Pro teams?

Nick Brockdorff said...

I'm curious..... what constitutes a "pro team" to you people?

Seems a lot of people are up in arms about this issue, and I really don't get why..... If they suck, they will vanish again, if they don't, the critique was pointless.

Either way, no league precludes anyone from buying a pro spot and utilising it as they see fit.... not the NPPL, not the PSP and not the MS.

Anonymous said...

A "pro team" means they are professionals at the highest level.

The way to become a "pro team" through the lower divisions.

I think Contact will do very well... solid group of players.

People are upset because they haven't earned any respect. I would like to know what has Contact done to show me they are a good team?

Nick Brockdorff said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nick Brockdorff said...

"professionals at the highest level" - that is your reply?

You must be kidding :D - What does that even mean?

And, you are mistaken in thinking all the current pro teams proved themselves "through the lower divisions".... a great deal of them did not.

Any person can buy a franchise and fill it up with whoever he or she wants, in any league and in any sport.

Thinking any differently is delusional.

Neither PSP nor NPPL has a promotion/relegation system in place, and it is largely arbitrary who gets to play pro.

Now, if you WANT there to be more control over who gets to play in the highest division, you should criticise both PSP and NPPL - not just one of them - because they are equally lacking a system that ensures quality in their top division.

Anonymous said...

ANON @ 1:36 PM

The only reason their pro is because of money. The NPPL doesn't believe in them.

"If you think it takes anything more than that, you are the true joke."

So, your saying pro paintball is easy? all I need is money, right?

Just because you can buy a pro spot doesn't mean you can actually play pro.

Anonymous said...

Nick,

What is your definition of a "pro team"?



Anonymous said...

I don't get how saying this team should earn their way into the Pro division by performing in lower divisions is anger or jealousy.

If they really belong as a Pro team, finishing strong in a couple of D1 events should be no problem for them. If they aren't able to do that, then they don't belong as a Pro team. How is that an unreasonable standard?

Anonymous said...

Every single one of the Contact players has proved themselves in the past with tournament WINS. All of them have MANY YEARS of tournament experience in ATLEAST D2, the majority above. They didn't BUY a spot any more than someone PAYS ENTRY to an event. They have MORE SPONSORS THAN YOU DO! Let the play in Vegas form your opinion rather then going sports center all over them.

Nick Brockdorff said...

My definition?

"Anyone who can afford it"

Now, I would prefer it to be:

"A team that has moved through the ranks and earned promotion into the Pro division"

BUT... that is not the reality of paintball, neither in the PSP or NPPL.

Until it is, people have no business shaming the NPPL for allowing a new pro team, when the exact same thing happens in the PSP.

If you people want teams to "earn it" - you have to petition your league of choice to institute a promotion and relegation system, otherwise all this drama is just arbitrary BS.

Yes, people will still be able to just buy a pro spot, but at least, with a promotion and relegation system, it becomes costly, because teams have invested time and money in reaching pro status.

As things stand, people have no business calling out this new team for wanting a pro spot, since there are absolutely no requirements to play pro in either league.

My guess is, the negatives are either just jealous they did not think of it first - or they live in lala land with the fairies and unicorns.

Anonymous said...

Nick,

You'd have a point, if you were not wrong.

The exact same thing doesn't happen in PSP. Name one example.

The most recent Pro teams to be added to PSP:

Heat: Mostly a combination of Red Legion and Aftershock players from the previous season.
Thunder: Switched from Pro in NPPL
CEP: Skipped an event and still got 3rd in D1 in 2010
Vicious/Aftermath/Impact all worked up through the divisionals.
XSV is jumping in at Cup and has been a pro team forever.

The MOST questionable team on that list is Thunder.

Do you see any D3 teams on that list? No, you don't.

To suggest that PSP would have let Contact play Pro is just plain stupid.

Anonymous said...

^^^^
Heat: New Team period do sent matter if they have some top pros and D2 players..Its a NEW team.

Thunder: As of last years rankings in appa before they went pro 95% of there guys were D4 yes D4...

So stop being biased and saying Psp would never do what Nppl is doing you sack rider every league is a business and its about the money...

And Heat is a great example of its about the money Sarge is fronting the bill for alot of it.

Nick Brockdorff said...

You are missing the point.

There are no rules in place, that prohibit a team from doing the exact same thing in the PSP.

The only question is what it costs..... and whether there is an open spot to buy, or if you have to buy an existing franchise.

And, if you look at this historically, there are plenty of examples of teams of nobodies, that entered straight into the pro division - Legion did it in Europe, Dynasty did it in the NPPL (before the leagues split).

Yes, I agree this should not be happening in a serious sport.... but you should blame the leagues (plural!) for that..... none of them have any benchmarks in place that qualifies a team for pro.

PSP should have people qualify for nationals at regional events, and in the national divisions, they should put relegation and promotion in place in - at least - the top 3 divisions..... but that is not the reality.

Until it is, you or I have no business shaming the NPPL for allowing in a team of young hopefulls.

Anonymous said...

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3595521

Uprising getting hate for jumping pro....didnt even HAVE a roster before they got the spot. They then went to place 3rd and 4th their first season.... interesting.... Considered a competitive pro team now.

Anonymous said...

Upton earned their way up to Pro in PSP.

Anonymous said...

Nick,

Do you seriously believe PSP would have allowed Contact to play Pro if they had asked?

Just because PSP doesn't publish their criteria for allowing Pro teams doesn't mean they don't have them. You certainly can't just log onto APPA and pay a Pro entry fee to play PSP.

And it's silly to pretend that adding a team of current Pro players is the same as adding a team of D3 players.

Anonymous said...

Nick,

"professionals at the highest level"

You are saying my definition of a pro team is a complete joke. Can you explain to me why its wrong?

I must have forgotten about the division above Pro...

Anonymous said...

Professionalism is not defined by the capacity to win, but instead by the qualities that characterize the professional person. OR you could look at the true professionalism in reference to athletics where they play and make gain or livelihood..... MOST professional paintball players do not make money, and I don't know of any that play exclusively for a living. So TECHNICALLY, nobody is a professional paintball player.....and if they consider themselves to be it is in regards to their conduct and character within the sport. Which can span divisions.

Anonymous said...

I have never in my life seen such a concerted effort at polishing a turd.

It's a joke. Fortunately there are enough marginal NPPL Pro teams and the NPPL reffing is so bad they'll at least still win games.

Anonymous said...

Contact will win vegas

Anonymous said...

does anyone have an old warpig jpeg of those eastgerman tracksuits Legion was rocking?

Mike said...

@ Anon 2:33
"You certainly can't just log onto APPA and pay a Pro entry fee to play PSP."

Ya you can. If I had the players and the funding I'd start a "Pro team" tomorrow lol

Pro athlete's in American sports get paid in 6 or 7 digit numbers. Does that make them Pro or is it their talent? Some players get drafted into a pro division without a lot of experience. Like Sun Yue on the Lakers a few years back.

57 comments about a team nobodys heard of. Zero comments on Baca's "Basic Tactics:Breakouts thread."

Anonymous said...

Mike,

You should learn how to count correctly.

raehl said...

@Mike:

No, you can't.

Anonymous said...

Good point re: Breakout tactics

Anonymous said...

If you could just pay to play pro in the PSP why wouldn't anyone just play pro? Same entry and more exposure. The PSP has a common sense rule on letting teams in. As for Contact I'm sure they will learn as they go. I'm also sure many of the players in here play PSP and can't understand how a pro league would let a team jump from D3 to pro. It is seen as a right of passage to move up in the PSP. And for this Nick B kid do you play tournament paintball on a national level? You seem to play devils advocate on a lot of issues and you don't seem to have much experience at the upper end tournament scene.

Anonymous said...

He plays in Europe, so no, he hasn't played at the upper end.

Anonymous said...

Haha, this is funny! Now Nick B is a kid. Also a kid with no experience of national nor international paintball.

Baca, please continue your Basic Tactics series and let the haters battle it out in propaintball.com's chatbox or something.

Whop whop!

Nick Brockdorff said...

I found that funny too - I feel young suddenly, there is a new spring in my step, and birds seem to sing whereever I go :P

To the people that don't know - I've won national events, at Pro level - I just usually don't find the need to toot my own horn to debate, since intelligence and playing experience have very little relevance to eachother..... and before you start to debate that.... think about where it is you are posting ;)

That out of the way:

PSP has no control over who owns a franchise as far as I know.... correct me if I am wrong, but who is to stop someone from buying the CEP franchise (for instance) in the offseason, and rostering whoever they want?

Also, it is mightly convenient that people forget how some of the best teams in the sport, started exactly the way Contact is.

All that having been said, I just watched a video of Contact practising at CP...... and man, that looked bad - they are in for a steep learning curve :D

Anonymous said...

@NICK

What teams have you played on and when? What tournaments did you win as a pro?

What division do you play in right now?

Anonymous said...

wow, for so many comments I thought I'd see something interesting. Just more of the same.

So let's go back to what I said early on. All that is required to be a pro team in paintball is for a league to accept you and you to have the money.

The PSP accepted CEP, Thunder, Upton, etc. because they wanted to expand the division and they wanted the money.

The NPPL accepted these guys for the same reason.

People who keep talking about how CEP or Upton proved themselves aren't getting it. There was no metric or qualification they had to meet to be award a pro spot. They needed nothing more than funding and the PSP saying, "you're admitted."

So again, it's a joke to think you earn a pro spot by your merits. Your merits might factor in sometimes, and it might not factor in other times.

What it comes down to is the league says you are pro because they agree to accept your entry fees.

Now, let's return again to an earlier point... people are conflating "pro" with a top tier pro team, or a sunday-for sure 75% of the time pro team.

There are quite a few PSP teams who don't measure up to that definition, and I don't think these Phoenix guys will either.

Dave Painter said...

Acutally - in the case of upTon 187 cRew, the prize package for being the overall series Champion in D1 in 2011 was a PRO Slot for 2012 along with some other benefits/Prizes.

We earned our slot.

Are we a top 4 Pro team - no, but I doubt anyone expected us to jump up from D1 to Pro and compete for 1st place every event. It's a learning process.

Anonymous said...

@10:19 AM Anon:

"There was no metric or qualification they had to meet to be award a pro spot."

"They needed nothing more than funding and the PSP saying, 'you're admitted.'"

Way to contradict yourself in back-to-back sentences.

There is a difference between "You don't know what PSP's Pro qualification criteria are" and "PSP doesn't have criteria."

All of the teams PSP has ever admitted to Pro have one of the following characteristics:

- Roster nearly entirely made up of players who played PSP Pro the previous season (Example: Heat)
- Roster nearly entirely made up of players who placed at the top of D1 the previous season (Example: Upton, CEP, Vicious, Aftermath)
- Roster almost entirely made up of players playing the "Pro" division in a different league. (Thunder, Uprising)


No rational person can compare letting a D3 team play Pro to what it takes to get into PSP's Pro division. Letting contact into NPPL Pro is not, in any way, "the same thing" as getting to play Pro in PSP.

Anonymous said...

Forgot:

"The PSP accepted CEP, Thunder, Upton, etc. because they wanted to expand the division and they wanted the money."

That's also just plain not true.

If PSP lets a team into Pro, they get the same $2,800 entry fee they would have if the team had played D1. Even if the team wouldn't have played PSP at all, it's just one entry fee out of the 100+ entry fees PSP gets every event. They're not going to compromise their Pro division for one entry fee.


That NPPL is so desperate for the cash is just another sign of how desperate NPPL is.

Anonymous said...

(@ Roster nearly entirely made up of players who played PSP Pro the previous season (Example: Heat)
- Roster nearly entirely made up of players who placed at the top of D1 the previous season (Example: Upton, CEP, Vicious, Aftermath)
- Roster almost entirely made up of players playing the "Pro" division in a different league. (Thunder, Uprising)


So Thunder was Pro in Nppl before transferring over to Psp..BUT before they were Pro in Nppl alot of there guys were D3 & D4 before they started playing pro in Nppl

Anonymous said...

And also, people forget so soon. Uprising had 1, maybe 2 pros on the team when they went pro, and didn't even have a roster when they "acquired" their spot. Now people take them as a serious and viable pro team? Who cares about all this! Its a game!

Anonymous said...

And Vicious was a D3 team before they were a Pro team. What's your point? Everybody starts somewhere.

The difference is PSP doesn't let teams skip from D3 to Pro. Apparently if NPPL can sucker a team into giving them some desperately needed cash, they will.

Face it, putting a D3 team into Pro is a joke, and there's nothing you say that's going to make it less so.

It's just more evidence of how legitimate NPPL is not.

Anonymous said...

Contact is not a D3 team.......why do people keep saying ANYTHING about NPPL letting a "D3 team jump to pro"?! This is a brand new team. The D3 players that most of you are thinking of are probably their second line players. The team that will be pro is in no way D3..... This team has not played a PSP or NPPL event as phoenix contact. It appears some of you are a little caught up on something. The majority of the players have played PRO IN PSP OR NPPL at some point.

Anonymous said...

At some point like... 2005?

The roster has been posted. It's a combination of a couple 2nd-string players from marginal pro teams in 2005/2006/2007 filled out with D3 and lower players.

It's also a D3 team because five of the players played on a D3 team at PSP Phoenix and got 2nd to last. That included some of those "former pro" players.

Maybe you're right.. maybe it's actually a D4 team that just stepped up to D3 for the PSP event.

Anonymous said...

lol ^^ Turn it into whatever you want. We have a bunch of detectives on our hands!


Nick Brockdorff said...

I love it when people throw around the word "legitimate" in these kinds of debates.

It implies there is a sanctioning body in paintball - which we all know is not true..... it implies legitimacy is a real value in paintball - which it is not.

Neither league is any more "legitimate" than some bar league for arm wrestling.

No wait, actually - arm wrestlers have a governing body.... so I was wrong..... paintball is LESS legitimate.

Personally, I enjoy 5 man X-ball and I enjoy the work PBA is doing, so in that sense, I believe PSP has a stronger product and a better chance of survival... but I also know from experience in this sport, that it only takes a few key pieces to move, and suddenly the roles are reversed.

I fail to understand why people are all up in arms about a private league allowing a "pro spot" to be picked up by some relative noobs.... how is it hurting YOU - really - to cause such drama?

I say live and let live... as long as there is market for the NPPL and they want to keep running the league - more power to them.... they serve a market, otherwise they would not exist.

Nick Brockdorff said...

- and to the other guy, who wants to know my pedigree in this sport.... sorry, but I am not going down that road, as it is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

If you don't know, you are probably not supposed to know :)

Anonymous said...

I'm that guy. And I've won as a Pro and Coached my team's to Pro wins and Pro Championships. And no I don't know who you are. As I said it's not personal and your reasoning is flawed.

Mike Hinman

Nick Brockdorff said...

That's fine - many of your former players do - and you can't know everything :)

Nick Brockdorff

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