Saturday, February 16, 2013
Impact Out
--of the PSP pro division! Mr. Curious is calling this a done deal (but as y'all know done deals are undone all the time.) Rumorology is unclear as to the cause though it's easy to speculate it is part of the hardening stance between the two leagues. (A countervailing theory suggests this move may have been motivated by a desire to keep deep pockets from setting off a bidding war for the top players--rumor had it Bart was dropping some serious change on his latest acquisitions--a move that could cripple the competitive balance of the fledgling Champions & Challengers changes to the pro division.) Given that the conventional wisdom is that the NPPL doesn't continue to exist without Bart Y.'s continued support it would appear the PSP has tired of endless on again off again negotiations. Considered in the light of other pro team departures from the NPPL for the 2013 season--including XSV, it begins to look like a determined push to settle the dueling leagues once and for all.
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52 comments:
So what happens to the players he was already courting for the psp? Do they now have to find teams in a month to be able to play the psp?
This is old news. Impact left PSP at the start of last year because Bart apparently thought he could run a better league.
If Bart wants to keep NPPL alive so bad, seems perfectly reasonable for PSP to make him play it.
Anon
And Impact, with the support of its sponsors, got a WC spot and had every intention of rejoining the PSP pro division in 2013.
I do agree that a small circle of peeps was aware of the talk about keeping Impact out for the last couple of weeks it was still being debated until very recently.
It's great that they had the intention, but why would they have the expectation?
Would seem natural for someone to assume that if they are going to compete against a business that the favor would be returned.
Confusing.
If there is any truth to this, why would an owner load up a roster with so much talent, only to see it wasted competing in a mediocre league against mediocre talent...com on man
If true it reflects poorly on the psp. I can't believe the PSP would do this. So it must not be true.
Actually, it would make sense for the PSP to make the Pro division consist of teams that played in it all last season.
That way nobody can complain they were relegated without getting to play for it..... and it will also make the Challenger division much more interesting, with Impact playing in it first time around.
I don't see this as much of a drama TBH.... I think it is a smart move by the PSP, in terms to showing loyalty to teams loyal to them, while giving everyone else in the world, the chance to qualify for Pro through the new system.
NewPro/Nick, etc.
Impact is being barred from inclusion in the PSP. As I understand it that means across the board, period, end of story.
First you say rumor, now you say fact. Is it?
What's strange is Impact was allowed at World Cup. After World Cup, Impact takes two key players from Dye's #1 team and 1 key player from Kee's factory team.
Now Impact isn't allowed, with some ramblings about rich guys throwing around money breaking up teams.
Strange that when Sarge steps in, throws around some money and takes players from other teams to build is own it's all good.
But when those players come from Dye and Kee teams? This happens.
I'm really hoping this isn't true because I'd like the PSP just to grow by leaps and bounds one more year and the NPPL will either fade away or become a minor league (more so than it already looks to become).
But seriously, if this is true it would demonstrate exactly why two leagues are needed, or at least why it's a very very bad idea to have industry guys running the show.
What a crazy off season. The industry guys throwing their weight around overseas (EPBF/Millennium/Laurent/CPS) and seemingly the same thing happening over here?!? But seriously, this is so crazy it just can't be legit.
Are you really that dumb? You really think KEE or Dye give a crap about a couple players? If they kicked out every team that some of their players moved to there wouldn't be any left.
Impact quit PSP last year. Last year they were still a KEE team and KEE wanted their sponsored teams to play PSP at Cup and got them in.
PSP tried to get NPPL to merge. Bart insisted on continuing to fund a competing national league instead. It's like an NFL franchise owner thinking he can go start the XFL and keep his NFL franchise.
PSP has invest a lot in making the best product available. It makes no sense for them to let someone like Bart use PSP to promote his team while Bart is funding and using that same team to promote PSP's competitor.
Anyone with any common sense at all would have seen this coming.
"Hey, I know I just shit on your lawn, but I'm still invited to dinner, right?"
I mean really, what kind of chumps to people take PSP for?
Or we add to the conspiracy theory. Baca plays on a rival team, and is partly annoyed at so ex teammates for leaving, and partly hoping he can sow some seeds of discontent and get them to come to his new team.
Or if thats no good someone is using baca to drop rumors and see what happens.
Either way:
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8:28 Anon
It's never been a good idea to have industry guys also being the major tournament promoters but few others have ever been sufficiently motivated.
9:28 Anon
PSP doesn't want to confirm it in case some percentage of fans don't like the decision and Impact isn't prepared to confirm it yet either because as long as they don't their principle sponsors can continue to work behind the scenes to see if they can undue it. Make no mistake though, Impact has been informed of the decision.
The ultimate question is if the PSP is the league that is focused on the quality of event and competition or playing hard ball politics. It doesn't hurt the PSP or its sponsors to have Impact play. It definitely puts a stain on the league and the top division to have politics get in the way of who competes. It needlessly forces Impact fans and those who were excited about the upcoming changes to view the PSP differently. Not as the premier sporting league but one that's ruled by industry guys who use their power for personal spite. Not cool...that's why I don't see them doing this. I call schens. The PSP has done so much over the years, there no way they throw credibility out the window. They've even got PBA reporting on Impacts off season moves.
The PSP is an arrogant league. This is finally some of that arrogance brought to light. Do they put out a great product? Sure. But they were nothing special until PBA came about and after the NPPL 1.0 ran into financial troubles at the fault of people long removed. The NPPL has done much more for the sport in bringing it to public light over a significantly longer time frame. Then, PSP comes out with a hugely expensive venture that is PBA and is instantly the elite league? Why? Because now we have audio updates on what unpaid college kid/pro paintball player broke their arm and we get to watch a webcast with the same 3 commercials on repeat? More like the league of elitists. Don't get me wrong, I have played pro in both leagues, and both put out great products at times, and terrible products at others, whether it be Reffing, venues or trade shows. I have had this view of the PSP since 2006. I personally think the leagues need to polarize more. Then, for world cup have the teams from each play each other and see what league really does produce the best players over the long run (pending the pretty obvious eventual format consolidation to 5 man, although I love 7 man and want to see it survive). The PSP is the industry heavy weights swinging glass axes. Its all politics and the divisional players, well, you don't matter other than being the prime financial support all in hopes of being featured on the PBA webcast one day. You all know YouTube accounts are free though.....
Why all the PSP hate? Nobody made Bart run a different league. Nobody made Bart quit PSP last season. If Bart wanted to play PSP, he should have played PSP.
Bart wanted to have his own league to play in, and now he gets to.
That's BULLSHIT if the PSP isn't including them.
As the poster above made the point... It's okay for Houston Heat to independently fund their team and "buy" players from other teams, but it isn't okay for Bart?
Makes 0 sense to me. And if they want to make the Champions league as competitive as possible, they'd let that amount of talent stay and play.
Well, to me it sounds less to do with how much money he spends on players and more on how much money he spends on a competing league. Unfortunatley this is the fans loss, but if PSP is doing what it seems like, in a buisness point, it's a genius move to first let him spend a lot of money on players and then deny him a spot in the PSP. I would l would like to see this roster compete in PSP though and hope it all sorts out.
If, IF, the rumor/fact/innuendo/hearsay/public opinion is that PSP has made a business decision to exclude impact based on the team owners participation in another league, i'm disapointed. Allowing impact to compete, only shows how the best teams want to compete in the number one offering of pro paintball, the PSP. Punishing Bart/impact/players means they still perceive the NPPL as a threat.
or
They could be sticking a big middle finger up and saying FU Nipple, this is the final nail in the previously re-resurrected coffin
Hey smart guy what the hell does this have to do with the players? You really think this is happening because of players moving around in the league?
You are retarded
Wow, if the PSP is truly completely excluding Impact from competing, in any division, that is most certainly a PR nightmare, and a completely inane business decision to make.
What on earth do they gain?
If they want to continue being the flagship league of our sport, excluding individuals (baring criminal behaviour) is not the way to go..... they just took themselves down from being the pinnacle of the sport for the foreseeable future, to being a bunch of petty individuals running a private invitations only party.
They are opening the door for a competing league to gain a foothold, now that they had almost succeeded beating the NPPL into submission.
They COULD have had the principal of their largest competitor support their league..... then they do this instead.
If this did not come from Baca, I would have called it a silly rumour, because it is the worst business decision I have seen in a long while in paintball.
But then, I should stop being amazed at how bad and shortsighted businessmen most principals in our sport are :D
I agree with this totally!
I don't think this is good for the PSP From a PR perspective. Maybe it's a move by the PSP to get the NPPL back the the negotiation table.
Pissing people off, is seldom a good outset for negotiation ;)
i posted this in the pbnation thead discussing this and it's an idea that hasn't been touched on:
ok guys - here is my best educated guess on this:
the fourth dates of PSP conflicts with NPPL's. Bart who obviously would support his team playing NPPL for that event over psp's contacted PSP to have them change their 4th date.
PSP said no. AND also added, we are only allowing Pro teams who can and will commit to the entire season. Therefore if in advance we know Impact will be missing our 4th event because of conflicts with another league, well sorry, but that's your problem.
And with the new relegation system in place, Impact misses 4th event they are automatically out of World Cup Champions and forced to play in the Challengers division.
Am I the only one who finds it strange the PSP scheduled an event, for which they have no confirmed venue on the exact same dates for an event the NPPL has a venue? It's so childish...
So far this year we have the PSP actions against Valken, the PSP double scheduling for no reason, the PSP banning Impact.
I take the Impact ban as fact, because if it were not fact, it would be such and outrageous lie that they'd have to refute it. Since they haven't stated publicly on the matter, they must be confirming it. When do you have to send out a press release stating "such and such team is not invited". You just don't invite them.
However, if Baca said the Ironmen are banned and you can take that to the bank, you can be sure the PSP would step in and say, "no such thin has happened".
All in all, the PSP is shaping up to be kinda like assholes who are so focused on the rivalry they might start turning supporters against them (like me).
Which is a shame, because they are otherwise pretty awesome.
1:21 Anon
I think characterizing the PSP's actions as "childish" is to miss the point altogether. One may differ with the chosen course but it isn't childish--and your examples need a little explanation as well.
The overlapping dates. The facts are that both last year and this year when negotiations faltered between the leagues the NPPL released complete schedules within 24-36 hours. Last year they had to cancel Vancouver and this year they will be cancelling Hawaii any day now. As to the specific 4th event a review of past PSP practice over the last 10 years shows a pattern of scheduling Chicago in late June and putting 7 to 8 weeks between Chicago and the August event; in 7 of the last 10 years that would put the event on the middle weekend, which, this year is the 16,17th. My point is simply that it wouldn't have been difficult for the NPPL to predict which weekend in August the PSP was likely to schedule--and they've done the same to the first MS event this year with HB. So who is trying to counter-schedule who?
As for Valken they were a gear sponsor of the PSP last year and could have been again this year. This year they could have been a paint sponsor too if they had so chosen. Instead they opted not to sponsor the league at all.
And Impact is owned and run by the primary backer of the league's competition and deals have fallen thru 2 years in a row. They are imposing another "cost" to maintaining the status quo.
Wrong-headed perhaps but not childish.
Childish? Wrong-headed? Whatever. It's definitely very hard to defend, although you're doing your absolute best I'm sure.
Might I suggest throwing some more muck at the NPPL though - it will distract people that might be thinking unkind thoughts about the PSP, and get posters back on the 'right page', so to speak.
Let's put it this way. The teams that play in the pro division of the PSP should be open to any and all of the best teams in the world that have the financial capability to sustain themselves.
You don't hold teams out of the league for politics unless you want to make your league political.
I don't know how heavily the league is committed to this position, but they really are in danger of driving more support over to the NPPL in the long run if the NPPL survives another year or two.
It would have been much better to let Impact come into the PSP and if by their merits they have a successful season, then Bart would be more focused on that league because he gets more prestige from it.
I believe Bart cares more about his team than his league, but forcing someone else to make that decisions "before its time" is a way to lock people into to being confrontational.
Another option, which wouldn't surprise me is to see Impact removed from the ownership of Bart and given to his kids.
Conspiracy theory of the day... Alex Goldman changed his mind going from Impact to Ironmen after Hinman told him that Impact wouldn't be able to play PSP this year.
Isn't it partially likely that the Ironmen coach had some inside information and was able to act on it in acquiring a new player?
And even if its not true, it shows the impropriety of decisions like this.
Paintball, meet the real world.
There's a word for one business promoting their competitor: Stupid. It's amazing how many paintball players expect PSP to be stupid.
PSP is investing a lot of money in promoting their league and paintball in general. Not only do they provide the best forum for competition in terms of officiating, field and format, they also provide the best platform in terms of exposure with the webcast.
Why would you let a team use your platform to promote themselves so they can then turn around and undermine it?
The ridiculous party here isn't PSP. The ridiculous party is the one that thinks they can actively work against something while still enjoying the benefits of being part of it.
PSP gave Bart several opportunities to work cooperatively, even offering to host 7man at PSP events. Bart declined to cooperate. Only a fool would be surprised when "I don't want to cooperate with you" works both ways.
All these people would have a point if the PSP was telling the NPPL the NPPL couldn't have a team called "NPPL".
News flash! Impact does not equal NPPL.
The philosophical ground work you're laying is 100% the same as Dye telling DLX they can't be at the PSP because they are a competitor to Dye.
Dye (partly) owns PSP
Bart (partly)owns NPPL
Bart owns Impact
PSP, owned by Dye, bans Impact because the Impacts owner also owns something that some people thing "hurts" the PSP -- ya right, but whatever.
Dye (partly) owns NPPL
Gardners (?) own DLX
PSP, owned by Dye, bans DLX because DLX hurts Dye.
The fact of the matter is, in the grown up world, people have a lot of investments. Bart spends his money on a team in one hand and a league on another hand.
It's pretty screwed up for the PSP or any league, to tell people how they should invest their money in order to be a part of the PSP.
There just isn't a case of the PSP being "hurt" by the NPPL. In fact, from the sounds of it they were trying to use the NPPL as a reason to make MORE money off of Valken.
I think you mean:
PSP owns PSP.
NPPL, which competes with PSP, only continues to exist because Bart keeps dumping cash into it.
PSP decides they don't want a to promote a team owned by the same owner as their competitor.
The Chargers can't go play in the Canadian football league too.
Pepsi sold off their restaurant business into a separate company because other restaurants didn't want to buy soda from the same company that was running competing restaurants.
It doesn't matter who owns PSP - any rational business owner excludes a competitor from participating in their business.
PSP didn't say Bart can't play PSP. They said Bart can't run a competing league and play PSP. Bart is free to choose to play PSP instead of backing NPPL.
Considering that all pro NPPL teams are part owners of the league then why would Xfactor and Dynasty be allowed to continue playing both leagues?
557 Anon
It is no longer clear that any of the NPPL pro teams are part owners and it is categorically incorrect to say that ALL pro teams are part owners, they aren't. There is absolutely zero legally binding documentation stipulating ownership shares in the NPPL.
Fair enough, but they are clearly still showing some form of support for the NPPL, yet Impact can not?
Anon
If you buy the argument it isn't about Impact playing in the NPPL, it's about Bart Y. supporting the NPPL financially and wanting to play the PSP.
True but in the end this hurts the 10 players on Impact more so than the team owner, hence being ridiculous.
Impact fans suffer
PSP fans suffer
Bart suffers
Impact players suffer
Impact sponsors suffer
I think if you add up all the "suffering" the one who suffers the least is Bart and the one who suffers the most is the PSP.
It's a move which I hope they overturn. I get why they are putting pressure where they are, but Impact is not Bart. Telling Bart because he spends money on Impact and the NPPL (for whatever crazy reason) he can't continue to spend money on Impact playing in the PSP is just strange.
So like was asked before, if the ownership of the team changed hands would the PSP change its position?
And to add, spending money on Impact is only marginally less crazy than spending money on a tournament league.
Both are very easy ways to lose a lot of money and have 0 return for it. At least the league, in theory, could potentially provide a return some day.
901 Anon
Where were you with the suffering calculus last year when Bart pulled Impact out of the PSP? Were you concerned with Impact fans then? Or the players or Bart?
That's a good point.
Bart pulls his team from PSP: Ok.
PSP doesn't let Bart back in PSP: BOOOO!
When Bart pulled out of the PSP it was a mistake. It was bad for the team, bad for the PSP, bad for the fans and sponsors. It wasn't even good for the NPPL. The only thing it was arguably good for was Bart's checkbook, accept if he made team decisions based on that he might as well not have a team. Bart's mistake shouldn't be the psps justification for continuing it when it affects a lot more than Bart.
is the PSP worried that IF Impact wins in their League they would be financially aiding their competitor the NPPL......?
I thought that the PSP stated that all of the teams from World Cup Pro Division + the Ton-Ton's would make up the Champions Division @ the first event in Dallas...didn't Impact play in the Pro Division @ World Cup?
Why did the PSP let Impact back in @ World Cup Pro Division @ the end of the year that Impact pulled out of the league to begin with? Why change that decision now?
Obviously, the PSP, as a business, can do what they want with their business..... that's their prerogative, so all the talk about "fairness" should stop.
What IS up for debate though, is whether it is a smart business decision to exclude Impact.
As posted earlier in the thread, I think not.
This would be like the NFL excluding the Saints because of Tom Bensons other sports ventures.
While it might make sense theoretically, because the Hornets are costing the NFL media exposure, sponsorships and spectators in Louisiana, it does not make sense as a business decision.
The drawbacks are simply too great.
The PSP will realise, if they go through with the decision.... it will change how the PSP is viewed by the entire paintball community forever.
First and foremost, they will forever have lost the narative that they are a "serious sports league", the loss of which can do permanent damage to their brand and any future endeavours they may enter into.
They would be so much better served, by just letting Impact compete, because it tells the entire world, that even the NPPL owner thinks the PSP is the place to be.
I'm going to start buying macdonalds and taking it to wendys to eat it.
The more structured/professional/legitimate this sport becomes (and what the PSP is doing is a smart business move), the more players hate it.
Its been described by numerous armchair economists on PBN and here. Originally I was a little dissapointed because the impact "team" would suffer but the numerous references to Bart using the PSP to add legitimacy to his team and ultimately his league makes the "ban" good business.
Take your players hat off and put your big boy pants on.Bart will see the light, he's a buisness man,I see him cutting his losses with the NPPL and coming on board w/PSP.
If you think Impact playing in the PSP, gives the NPPL legitimacy, you are off your rocker.
It's the completely opposite, which is why a decision to exclude Impact is a poor business decision on the part of PSP.
Nick,
Your point makes sense, up to a certain point. It's a poor "PSP" decision to exclude Impact because Impact in the PSP really does demonstrate where Bart thinks his team should play to get recognition.
But as some have pointed out all along, it's not a PSP thing, but a Dye thing.
PSP Ownership (Dye) already hates/dislikes/has "rich man" rivalry with Bart. Bart, for his part, reciprocates, but really I don't see nor have I ever seen in the last 3 years the NPPL do anything that could possibly hurt the PSP and/or Dye.
So what does Bart do? He steals away players from Dye's top team. This not only hurts Dye team's standing within the league, but now some of the players who are in the 2013 Dye catalog using Dye products are using non-Dye products on Impact.
I don't think this aspect should be overlooked. This is the only reason that makes sense for them to be excluded.
That being the case, I believe the PSP & Dye will realize how poor this looks and decide to let them in -- after they make Bart sweat a bunch.
Otherwise, if this is some kind of powerplay with regard to a PSP vs. Impact vs. Bart relationship, it's pretty weak. I'd assume there is more cut throat reasons behind this and it has to do with Bart vs. Dye.
Either way, whatever the reasoning, it's a poor business decision.
All parties would have been so much better off, by letting sleeping dogs lie.
That's too late now, so the next best thing is to just let Impact in, and then tell the world there was never an issue, and that the rumours were untrue ;)
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