Sunday, November 1, 2009

Name That Penalty

The horn sounds. Both teams are on the break. Player X is running & gunning a corner bunker. He is hit on one of his legs below hip level during his run. He shoots all the way into his primary. Protected by his bunker Player X immediately checks his leg for a break.
Does the action described result in A) no penalty with the ref signaling the player is eliminated, or B) a minor with the ref signaling the player is eliminated or C) a major penalty with the ref signaling the player is eliminated.

I realize many of you are sufficiently creative to complicate this scenario almost endlessly. What if the player misses the hit? What if the ref waits to see what the player does next. Etc. Etc. None of those complications are to the point. The point is this is a simple, oft-repeated situation. Take it as given and answer A, B or C.

And, yes, for those thinking ahead there is a point. One we'll be getting around to in the not-too-distant-future.


Anonymous said...

B. He gets a minor penalty for playing on.

Don Saavedra said...

D) Bench penalty on Baca.

Just kidding. B.

Anonymous said...


Crusificton said...

Depending on the stage of the run I would assess the penalty accordingly.

If the player broke and within a second he was hit and still ran and gunned to his bunker then checked I would give them a minor.

If they were hit a few feet from their bunker and then checked them self I would just pull them.

Mike said...


raehl said...


Anonymous said...


houdini said...

I don't even know the rules for Xball but I'd say B for playing on...

Miller said...

I'm going with C. A leg hit is usually considered "obvious". The ref will assume the player felt the hit, and continued to shoot his gun BEFORE checking himself. If he doesnt continue shooting and dives into the bunker, it is more likely to be a minor. This exact scenario happened to us running and shooting to a corner prop on 2 occasions this season. The refs chose to throw a major on both occasions (although 1 time may have been a minor now that I think about it...). Since pro field refs are usually far more strict than divisional refs, I would think this is a major on the pro field.

Damien said...

Average speed : 15-25mph
15mph = 22ft/sec
20mph = 29ft/sec
25mph = 36ft/sec
So you would reach the corner in about 2 to 3 secondes.
Average reaction time: 0.2-0.3 sec

Once you feel the hit, you need time to process what you felt, stop shooting and take the decision to either consider yourself out or finish the run in case you are not hit... i don't think you can do that in less than 0.5 sec. (reaction time for the hit + decision making)

I would go for C. if you DONT stop shooting and B. if you DO but still run to your bunker.

franktankerous said...

Its C its an obvious hit. I was about to argue that it seemed a little harsh, but in all fairness the player was shoot, if he keeps running and gunning up to the X he could possibly eliminate an opponent while he's running and gunning. Whats worse then getting shot by a guy you know you shot?

Baca Loco said...

Doing great so far.
Devil's Advocate, Frank, what's worse than getting shot by a guy you know you shot? How about having two players pulled as a consequence of what may or may not be a hit or because you may or may not have ceased shooting quickly enough in the subjective opinion of a random ref?

Joe R said...

The following should apply:

In your proposed situation, C applies. The player had an obvious hit, regardless of relative location of the hit on his body, and continued to shoot their marker.

Had the player been shot, immediately (as discerned by a referee) stopped shooting, and proceeded to his primary to check himself without asking for ref assistance, A would apply. Should that 'primary' have been a bunker significantly far away from where he was shot, B would apply (i.e. player X gets shot halfway between home and snake 1, and proceeds to run/dive all the way into S1/S2). If a ref believed that said player attempted to slide wipe the hit, C would again apply.

Sections 2.7 and 2.8 of the 2009 rulebook apply to this situation, noting that additional clarity is provided in the footnotes.

franktankerous said...

Baca you said in this case he is shot his way to the bunker. Had he stopped shooting and just continued with forward motion to his bunker then (A) would be the proper call, not going by the letter of the rules but more the spirit(since forward movement is play action), but the fact is if a player is shot their prerogative is to check themselves not continue shooting. His continued shooting is game changing play action. Even if he doesn't hit anyone he is still holding a lane someone delaying might not risk running through.

As far as the refs call being "subjective" a player with a hit on them and moving forward or shooting draws a penalty. Its always been up to the ref to decide if they player took too many steps after getting shot or how much longer they continue to shoot. So we need to remove that from the scenario, because the ref even giving him a chance to check himself first is totally the refs choice.

Calling yourself on a bounce while running the X is not something you see players do, but thats because the refs have been letting situations like this go for the most part.

But if the refs start pulling people on it then maybe the risk reward paradigm changes. Maybe its worth pulling yourself on that 1 in 10 chance that event paint bounced instead of risking playing on a losing two bodies. If you've been getting bounces all day maybe the risk is worth it.

Baca Loco said...

Do you want players to pull themselves without knowing whether or not they are actually eliminated according to the rules?

franktankerous said...

Corner players and snake players pull themselves on hits they can't see while they are running OTB all the time. They don't have to but they do it to avoid penalty happy refs who want to assume the player tried to slide off the hit...

To help backup some of my points I'll attempt to get some support from the PSP rulebook

2.8.7. Players who are in motion when they receive an obvious hit in a location they cannot verify themselves may proceed to the nearest cover while waiting for a judge or teammate to verify the hit as in 2.8.6.

2.8.6. A player with an obvious hit that is in a location that the player cannot verify may ask a judge or teammate to verify the hit before proceeding as otherwise required by2.7.1, but may take no other action.

So when you put the two parts together. The player can go to his bunker before checking himself, but take no other action. Continuing to shoot is therefore prohibited.

Since the player in your example kept shooting his way to the X he is playing on and should receive the penalty for a player who plays on with an obvious hit.

The rule doesn't declare the player alive until they are behind cover and can check themselves. It grants them a grace period wait until they are behind cover to check themselves.